Oil Everywhere

[DazSeaton]

Hi all,
Just fixed an electrical fault on my newly acquired A10 Super Rocket 1959 and now I have another problem.
Oil is everywhere between the Primary drive casing and the engine/gearbox (and making its way onto the rear tyre etc, not good!!). Its not the primary chain drive as this has been converted to a belt. I suspected the Gearbox final drive oil seal, but have checked the oil level in the gearbox and it was full. Will be keeping an eye on this though.
Please excuse my ignorance as I'm just getting into the mechanics of classic bikes. But the only other place I can see where the oil maybe coming from is a hole in the crankcase as seen in the photos. The first photo is where the location of the hole is from the top and the second is sticking the camera under the bike. It can bee seen bottom centre just below the nut. I have done a little research but I'm not sure if I'm in the right ballpark. Is this the crankcase breather hole? or is that somewhere else? Or could this be due to wet sumping? The bike hasnt been run alot in the past year (until I bought it two weeks ago). Only seems to leak when engine revving at speed, such as down the bypass. Do I need to get this part from SRM and feed the oil elsewhere:
Crankcase A10 primary side top hat thread insert (£14.70 SRMCC5).
Or do I need this?:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400265607204?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Any help would be greatly appreciated before the oil has me off!!! Just want to get out on it and ride it!
Kind Regards
Darren

[LJ.]

Hi Daz... yes that is the crankcase breather where you are pointing to. You need to find a small tube to just push in and some rubber pipe over that then secure the pipe to frame. I think I found some copper pipe that fitted just perfectly, cannot remember the diameter though. The breather maybe breathing heavily if the piston rings are still not yet bedded in... and as for wet sumping... the best cure is to ride the bike more often. anti wet sumping valves can result in lots of expensive tears!

[beezermacc]

Welcome to wet sumping! LJ is absolutely right. I have anti wet sump valves on a couple of my A10's and they have totally cured the problem. However LJ is right to express a note of caution because if the valve fails in the closed position the engine will be starved of oil. I know the bloke who makes and patented them and he gets really cross about stories of them failing. According to him there are no known failures (but he would say that!) Maybe to put this matter to bed we should actually find somebody who can report a failure from first-hand, personal experience and not from the experience of a friend of a friend. My experiences are very positive indeed and I don't know of anybody who has had one fail. If you haven't ridden the bike for a couple of weeks it's a good idea to let the bike idle for a while. If the oil tank is virtually empty you should drain the sump before starting.

[DazSeaton]

Hi Daz... yes that is the crankcase breather where you are pointing to. You need to find a small tube to just push in and some rubber pipe over that then secure the pipe to frame. I think I found some copper pipe that fitted just perfectly, cannot remember the diameter though. The breather maybe breathing heavily if the piston rings are still not yet bedded in... and as for wet sumping... the best cure is to ride the bike more often. anti wet sumping valves can result in lots of expensive tears!

Ah right, thanks LJ. the SRM part I quoted (Crankcase A10 primary side top hat thread insert) I think taps into the case and has a attachment for a standard size pipe. But for now may try and find a piece of pipe as you suggest. I will try some copper brake pipe. I dont think it is wet sumping from what you both say. Bit worried about the rings now as its not been refurbed. Could be that they're on their way out, but it's not smoking at all. Think it's most probably due to the fact it only went to the MOT station last year and now its been out everyday for the past week. :O)

[DazSeaton]

Welcome to wet sumping! LJ is absolutely right. I have anti wet sump valves on a couple of my A10's and they have totally cured the problem. However LJ is right to express a note of caution because if the valve fails in the closed position the engine will be starved of oil. I know the bloke who makes and patented them and he gets really cross about stories of them failing. According to him there are no known failures (but he would say that!) Maybe to put this matter to bed we should actually find somebody who can report a failure from first-hand, personal experience and not from the experience of a friend of a friend. My experiences are very positive indeed and I don't know of anybody who has had one fail. If you haven't ridden the bike for a couple of weeks it's a good idea to let the bike idle for a while. If the oil tank is virtually empty you should drain the sump before starting.

Many thanks for the info. Am I right in saying the best way to find out if its wet sumping is to check the oil level has'nt gone down before starting?
cheers Darren

[Ted_Flash]

Darren,

The best and safest fix if wet sumping bothers you is to put an on-off valve in parallel with the anti-sumping valve - that way the valve is just a fail-safe in case you forget to turn the valve on.

I can confirm that anti-sumping valves fail - I was on the M62 heading to Hull for the John Bull Rally in Belgium, following a mate on his Y13 750 v-twin.  He suddenly had no oil pressure.  We cut the valve out on the hard shoulder, resulting in a big pool of oil (not too proud of that) and so fixed it, luckily no permanent damage, largely due to non shell bearings.


Cheers,

Ted

[LJ.]

Darren... If you have been out on the bike everyday in the past week then you need not worry about wet sumping. Wet sumping only is a problem when you leave a bike for...say two weeks and more. I think I can safely say that most bikes wet sump to some degree, I know mine do! The problem is less when a thicker oil is used and regular running. You will get a better idea of your bikes behaviour if you watch the oil return as soon as you start up the bike. I find mine seems to run just a tad faster as soon as the bubbles appear where the oil is returned to tank.

In no time at all... you soon wont even bother about the issue... When I start my bikes... I do not rev them until after the oil has been pumped back to tank. All this is part of 'getting to know the bike'

[DazSeaton]

Ok, have done some more research and haved started a new topic:

http://www.audioworld.net/BSA/forum/index.php/topic,5074.msg34629.html#msg34629

[mike667]

Welcome to wet sumping! LJ is absolutely right. I have anti wet sump valves on a couple of my A10's and they have totally cured the problem. However LJ is right to express a note of caution because if the valve fails in the closed position the engine will be starved of oil. I know the bloke who makes and patented them and he gets really cross about stories of them failing. According to him there are no known failures (but he would say that!) Maybe to put this matter to bed we should actually find somebody who can report a failure from first-hand, personal experience and not from the experience of a friend of a friend. My experiences are very positive indeed and I don't know of anybody who has had one fail. If you haven't ridden the bike for a couple of weeks it's a good idea to let the bike idle for a while. If the oil tank is virtually empty you should drain the sump before starting.

i can report of a failure - it happened to my "un-failable" valve that was fitted to my norton to prevent it from wet sumping. thankfully   i caught it before it ruined my engine. What was really disturbing is i had used it for some 5 years  with no problem. When getting ready for winter hibernation some years ago I had changed my oil and decided to drive the bike around a bit to get the fresh oil circulated before throwing a blanket over it and pushing into the corner in the garage. after a few  revs etc i looked to see what the oil level was and noticed no oil  return. After freaking, and looking at everything but the valve and seeing they all looked fine  - i determined that it was the valve and after removing it the oil flowed fine.

i would never use one again - i was LUCKY and would rather deal with a wet sumping than shelling out $$$ for a rebuild

[trevinoz]

Yeah, Mike,
                     I have seen a Norton engine with the same but the owner didn't realise. It cost many $$$ to repair.

 Trev.

[beezermacc]

Interesting.... Any idea how or why the valve failed? It's such a simple device it's difficult to se what could go wrong with it.

[renos-a10]

 Good morning to all,

I have the same problem and i solved !
Please take a look
http://www.audioworld.net/BSA/forum/index.php/topic,3612.msg24823.html#msg24823

Thanks
Renos

[DazSeaton]

 Good morning to all,

I have the same problem and i solved !
Please take a look
http://www.audioworld.net/BSA/forum/index.php/topic,3612.msg24823.html#msg24823

Thanks
Renos

looks a neat job. I have temporarily bodged in a petrol pipe. Will do it properly if I have to renew my gearbox end oil seal, which is looking likely.

[mike667]

Interesting.... Any idea how or why the valve failed? It's such a simple device it's difficult to se what could go wrong with it.

 no i didn't  investigate it - was so P*****, yet happy i caught it. I did get a refund from the place that sold it (5 years afterwards - so they do stand by it - but of course they said i was the first to report a problem). If you go to the norton forums you'll hear a lot more horror stories. Think it's because they all tend to wet sump and they made so damn many commando's the amount of the valves used allows more testing (and failures)

[chaterlea25]

Hi All
I can report another failure !!! I was travelling with a friend of mine, he was riding a Vincent Comet fitted with an anti drain valve, Its engine tightened , no oil circulating !!!
We cut out the valve and joined the two pipes together , and all was well

beezermacc,

I believe the valves do not fail as such,
The prime for the pump can be lost through leakage !!
There are no seals on the pumps and BSA pump bodies are notoriously porus
If there is no oil in the pump it cannot create suction to pull the oil through the valve

Regards
John O R

[trevinoz]

I gather that the valve, in the case that I saw, failed after the bike had been standing unused for some time.
I think that the oil between the valve and the pump had drained away leaving the section dry and the pump unprimed.
As we know, an unprimed pump will not start by itself!.I would rather put up with wet sumping than put ANY device in the feed line.

Trev.

[beezermacc]

That makes sense. If the pump empties, stirring fresh air is unlikely to create enough of a vacuum to prime the pump.