Problems with Petsealed tanks and modern fuels - a warning

[NickSR]

Hi Chaz

Cant help with the tank repair but Burton Bike Bits are taking orders for new fibreglass GT tanks, check out their web site.

Regards
Nick

[chaz]

thanks for the heads up Nick, asked Hitchcocks last week and they said they had no plans to re order more tanks yet, spoke to watsonian at the bike show tuesday they have no ideas either but did say there may be an alloy one on one of their newer range and if I email them sizes they will check if it will fit 

[a101960]

There are a number of issues that need to be raised here. The first and most important of which is to write to your M.P. Ask him or her to explain what research was carried out in order to investigate what the potential damage to vehicles could be, due to the introduction of ethanol to petrol before the decision was made to do this. It is no use discussing this topic here, down the pub, or anywhere else unless you complain to your M.P. about what is happening. Our elected representatives will only take any interest in anything if they start receiving letters in their mailbags on this subject. Do not be apathetic about it make your concern known.

Second: An ethanol resistant lining is not good enough. It is crucially important to understand that a specification that is claimed  be resistant does not guarantee that it will not eventually dissolve. That statement is a very good safe guard for suppliers of this product against any potential future claims from irate customers, who might complain about its ineffectiveness.  Ethanol proof is the only safe lining to use. Right now the ethanol content of petrol is 5% and is set to rise soon to 10% in the near future with further increases in the pipeline. We are only getting a taster of what is to come. A resistant liner might or might not be able to cope at present ethanol levels, but what will happen if the percentage increases, as it surely will? Ethanol will attack your carburettor bodies, plastic floats, as well as your fuel lines and petrol taps. Steel tanks will suffer accelerated internal corrosion due to the hygroscopic nature of ethanol. Fibre glass fuel tanks are going to be unusable. There has been no national awareness campaign about the introduction of ethanol, and I have not noticed any mention of, or any warnings about ethanol on petrol pumps. There is a very good reason for that. There is no legal obligation to do so.

Third: Safety (and if you write to your M.P.) it might be worth including this. Sticking throttle slides. Imagine what will happen if you find that you cannot shut your throttle out on the open road. You could easily be faced with a situation where you need to throttle back, and you are unable to do so. Are you alert or agile enough to kill the ignition, and confident that your brakes alone will save the day? Maybe your bike does not have a kill switch. The BSA C12, and Sunbeam twins immediately spring to mind. The ignition switch is mounted on the tool box. Could you switch off quickly if you had to? Villiers twins have their ignition switches set in the crankcase casting.

Fourth: Who is going to pay for any damage to your engine? The petrol company? The government for forcing the the petrol company to add ethanol to your petrol? or the EEC for introducing this legislation? Another question for your M.P. I would venture to suggest. Possibly you could claim on your insurance, but what would that do to your premium at renewal time?

Fifth: Petrol with ethanol added has a shelf life of only three months, but separation will start after only two or three weeks. Once ethanol has started to absorb water in becomes acidic which is why it is so corrosive. An ethanol level of 10% is suitable only for post 1988 engines. The metallurgy in post 1988 engines has been formulated to suit ethanol. The only good news about ethanol is the fact that it enhances the anti knock properties of the engine.

Oh, and one other thing. If you belong to an owners club, or the VMCC then pester them to start campaigning. It may seem a bit paranoid to say this but this could lead to a situation where without any anti old bike legislation being introduced by the government our bikes could be driven off of the roads because there is no suitable fuel for them.

You have been warned! Get writing today if you value your bike.

John

[Brian]

I dont like any of the tank sealers and dont use them unless there is absolutely no alternative.

So far I have only used them twice, the last time about a year ago in the tank of my B31. I used a product called POR-15, I think its made in the states. They claim it is impervious to all fuel types.

I have had fuel in this tank for about 6 months now and it is not showing any sign of deteriorating so it looks like it will be ok. However we dont have ethanol in our fuel yet though its not far away by all accounts.

So if anyone is considering a tank sealer it might be worth contacting the company and asking if they reckon it will tolerate ethanol.

[lawnmowerman]

Spot on John and well worth a Karma point. I for one will be draining my fuel tank over the winter and refilling with fresh fuel in the spring - also in my 1938 Wolseley. I have noticed corrosion in my SR tank probably due to ethanol "contamination" so when I have drained it I will squirt some WD40 in there to try and coat the surfaces.

Not sure what I will do with the excess petrol as I have a diesel car - possibly the lawnwower or failing that - an expensive and dangerous way to start bonfires! Looks like I will need a new storage can for stale petrol.

I will stop buying super grade petrol in 5 gal containers for the SR - or will it be ok if kept in sealed plastic containers?

Jim

[bsa- bill]

The given advice for storing fuel tanks over winter is to put them away FULL, at least for diesel.
The reason is to limit the formation of condensation and rust ( it only occurring on bare metal).
OK the rust will not be severe enough to cause problems other than very long term, but condensation forming water in the bottom of the tank can be drawn into the fuel injector, probably not anything more than inconvenient in older vehicles but today's common rail systems will not tolerate it , with very expensive result (Deere injectors can be a grand apiece ).
I agree with John that a letter to your MP is a need to do, but lets not get beyond what we know and come across as paranoid, rust has been forming in tanks as long as tanks have been made from steel.
Ethanol attacking fuel lines is a better debating point and surely warrants bringing to public attention, and on this point I do hope there are none of us riding around with fifty year old fuel lines on our P and Ds, and further on this point please check how your lines are routed  - while swapping jets in my barb I noticed the temporary plastic fuel line from the timing side tap was close to the rocker box cover, close enough that it had slightly melted, as this was sold as petrol pipe I would have presumed that meant it had some degree of heat resistance - it seems not

Oh well back to shovelling snow, trying to get both bikes in to the shed so I can get the front of the car in the garage in case the temp drops to what they forcast

[a101960]

I will stop buying super grade petrol in 5 gal containers for the SR - or will it be ok if kept in sealed plastic containers?

Jim, another conundrum. How can anyone know if the currently available plastic petrol containers are ethanol proof? I strongly suspect that they are not. Should this be the case there is a danger that you might end up with petrol all over the garage floor. Once again the question arises of who can be held to be liable in the event of this happening and any consequences arising from such an eventuality.

Bill, You are quite right in your observation about storing over winter with a full tank to limit water contamination. All aircraft are mothballed in this way for that very reason. However with ethanol being present this would no longer seem to be sensible. I have done as Jim has suggested and drained my tank and sprayed it internally with WD40. I shall re do this on a monthly basis throughout the winter months.

John

[LJ.]

I have done as Jim has suggested and drained my tank and sprayed it internally with WD40.

This is a good idea but what about petrol tap corks that will dry out? Any idea in protecting them?

[bsa- bill]

if you've drained the tank LJ just also remove the taps and dunk them complete in a sealed container of petrol, I have a spare set that have been stored like this for a few years, now the funny thing is the first time I did this the petrol went to jelly over the winter but the present ones have been in the same petrol for at least six years and it's never changed - strange (could it be the ethanol!!!)

[chaz]

customer came in this afternoon with a Triumph daytona 1200, choke sticking and thinks carbs need balancing. talked to him about the ethylene problem, showed him info from Burton Bike Bits and he said he is a counciller. he is worried about this so will bring it up with the local MP, I suggest if possible as many need to contact their MP's asap as Burtons say the 15% addition is likely to be increased.