Electronic Ignition

[olev]

Gday Rocky,
Want to tell us about your electronic ignition?
I see the original magneto body is still there.
Are the pick-ups in the magneto where the points normally are? and what is it like to ride and tune?
cheers

[rocket man]

ok here goes electronic egnition first ove all
the pickups are in the mag its an srm kit and youl need to
covert to 12 volts wich can be done bye fitting a belt dinamo
drive kit which ups the dinamo speed and here are a few pics ove the kit

[Mosin]

This looks interesting. What sort of price are you paying for these kits?

[rocket man]

 SRM  have produced an electronic ignition conversion kit for the LUCAS K2F and K2FC magnetos. The kit has been designed to retain the original look of the magneto and yet have all the advantages of the Boyer MICRO-POWER ignition system. This system is used because of the low power consumption of the electronics, an important factor with the limited power of a LUCAS dynamo (60 Watts). The electronics are also very compact allowing them to be easily ‘hidden’ on the bike. A special sensor unit, manufactured at SRM, replaces the original magneto armature. This unit provides the timing signal for the ignition box and small dual output coil. The electronic ignition system provides an extra high energy spark at start up, precise ignition timing, “mapped” advance curve and a high power coil.

The kit is simple enough for fitting at home (no machining is required) and is supplied with all the parts required and comprehensive instructions.

These kits have a proven reliability record and many customers are surprised at how much the electronic ignition has improved their machine. The kit requires a 12v electrical system but can be wired for positive or negative earth (If you have a 6v system this can be easily converted to 12v). its 300 british pounds

[Mosin]

Sounds good (although my wallet won't run to £300 at the current time). What sort of price is the dynamo belt drive kit?

[Triton Thrasher]

I wouldn't tell anyone how they should do up their own bike, but Boyer Micro Power was a total disaster on my bike and I am not unique in that.  Ask on WWW.triplesonline.com

If people are pleased with their Micro Power, that's good, but are they doing many miles?

Be aware that the current draw may be low (<1 amp), but that's at high rpm when it wouldn't matter- current draw is several amps at idle.  Also, all connections, switch contacts and the battery voltage must be perfect or the ignition goes crazy.  I found that ignition switches had to be replaced regularly under winter conditions.  Don't bother using the cheap crimp connectors supplied in kits by Boyer; they are not up to the job.  Their bent brass HT terminals are rubbish too.  When the blue box failed completely and Boyer were unable to tell me what was wrong, they offered to sell me another one for £110, but I declined.

[rocket man]

ive had a total rewire and my dinamo has been totaly reconditiond i also have 12 volt electrics so i havint had eany truble with my boyer kit and im not telling
enyone what to do with there bike i also only use mine in good weather
because i want to keep her in good condition ive spent a small fortune on her
but shes worth it  

[rocket man]

the belt drive kit is about 85 pounds

[olev]

The couple of old fogeys I know who use manual advance magnetos only use them for starting.
They then wind them to full advance and leave them there. Maybe you can do that with old sad singles.
I always believed the auto advance on our twins gives full advance at 3000rpm and Orabanda confirmed this during a dyno test.
The curves I've seen for Boyer and Pazon just keep going up (more and more advance) with higher revs which is logical, I think.
a few people on this forum have or have had electronic ignition on various machines, so I ask them, aside from any thing else, is there any difference in the ride at say 3500rpm, 4000rpm and at valve bounce.
cheers

[Triton Thrasher]

The manual advance on most bikes, singles or twins, is only retarded for starting and sometimes to get a good slow idle or a low-speed crawl in traffic.  There are enthusiasts who like to twiddle the lever at other times, but there's little need.

As for auto-advance and electronic advance, fully advanced at 3000 rpm is about right for an old twin. The Boyer is actually pretty nearly fully advanced by then too, so there isn't a performance difference (not that I can detect). 

I don't know exactly why, but the correct fully advanced timing figure seems to be the same from 3000rpm, right up  to full revs.

There is no doubt that electronic ignition gives better timing control at high rpm than points.  I expect that practically all successful racers use electronic ignition. 

The New Zealand-made Trispark system gets a much better press than Boyer these days.  Has anyone fitted it into a mag-replacement casting?

I use a mag now, because however flawed,  I believe that for a dynamo-equipped bike in road use, it is the least of several evils.  But that's the great thing about a discussion forum- you're not trapped by some pub bore (me) battering you with one set of prejudices.  Other people have different experience, different requirements and different opinions.  Just be careful of pro- Boyer, or pro-Alton advice from people who sell them.  Also beware of the people who love modifications for their own sake.  They may be happy with an interesting, event-filled biking experience, while you might find that original standard specification lets you just travel around reliably.

[BSA_54A10]

Triton got it right.
The magneto is more than adequite for a slow reving motor like an A 7 or 10.
Once you go electronic you have added another level of complexity because the bike is now 100% dependent upon the generating system being top notch. Also any electrical glitch like a short in the brake switch will stop you dead in your tracks.
So to any electronic ignition price add a complete over haul of the dynamo.
The EP3L in its' standard form is only good for 80 watts when it was new and the magnets were at full strength. The voltage makes no difference to the output, 6V or 12V it will still only put out 80W.
A 65's went from 80 to 100 to 120 Watts and they were still short of electrons.

I am not trying to be a modification Nazi but you need to have a good think about it.
When it is all said and done it is your bike and if 16" rims with 8" tyres, S&S carb hanging out the side, ape hangers and a fluro green paint job gets your juices flowing then by all means do it

[MikeN]

the belt drive kit is about 85 pounds

Try Tony Hayward who makes them for SRM .
He sold me mine considerably cheaper than SRM sell them.
If you ring him he is always prepered to talk to you and explain specifications  etc

http://www.motorcyclewebsite.com/home/a0_T/a0_TO/i99_Tony_Hayward

Ive also had 2 of his superb belt drive primary kits.
Mike

[olev]

The Alanticgreen website has analysed Boyers in depth.
They are still advancing the spark at 2500rpm distributor speed = 5000rpm.
The attached link is from Pazon in NZ so might be a bit one sided (I think Trispark are in Adelaide?)

http://www.pazon.com/files/PDF/info1/PAZONvBOYER3.pdf

The ignition is still advancing when the revs are through the roof.(and I think they should)

and Trev, not so much a modification nut but getting with the times.
Its a bit like the old Ducati quote 'Turning riders into mechanics for 40 years.'
Its been a hell of a long time since i've been under the bonnet of a car with a timing light and dwell meter and I don't miss it at all.
I haven't identified a decent electronic alternative yet but it'll be on in a 'flash' when I do (pun intended)
cheers

[Mosin]

As mentioned in other threads, I have just fitted a Pazon Surefire ignition system hosed in a magneto replacement casting onto my A7ss.

The reasoning behind this was twofold:

My hand was forced by the fact that my magneto was destroyed and I needed to find some way of generating a spark. Had the mag been fine then I probably would not have changed it.

The bike was bought with the intention of me using it as a mode of transport and to get me too and from work on a near daily basis in anything but the worst weather, rather than just being used for leisure runs at weekends. As such I felt that the increased reliability offered by an electronic ignition outweighed the nostalgia feel of keeping it original. (incidentally, my Bantam is 100% original and will stay that way, but I bought the A7 to use)

As I am still running the bike in I am not in a position to be able to comment on the running at higher revs just yet. However, the improvements in starting and at tickover are collosal. Over the past six years I have had both hips replaced and always found starting the bike to be very hard work (although this may have been to some extent because the crank was in suce a poor state). This was always a huge worry when riding slowly in traffic that the bike would stall and I would not be able to get her going again. Now all that is required is the most half-hearted prod on the kickstart and she leaps into life from either hot or cold. I've converted to 12v and have a halogen at the front and LEDs everywhere else. I have retained the original chain drive on the dynamo and will wait to see how I get on with it before considering uprating to a belt of some description.

First impressions are very favourable and so far I am very pleased with the system, however, I recognise that it is still early days. Once I have used it a bit I will be able to offer more detailed feedback.

[tombeau]

that's the great thing about a discussion forum- you're not trapped by some pub bore (me) battering you with one set of prejudices.  Other people have different experience, different requirements and different opinions.  Just be careful of pro- Boyer, or pro-Alton advice from people who sell them.  Also beware of the people who love modifications for their own sake.  They may be happy with an interesting, event-filled biking experience, while you might find that original standard specification lets you just travel around reliably.

Brilliantly put TT.
Cheers,
Iain

[muskrat]

G'day all,
            i have had no problems with the Boyer. The only time it gives trouble is when there is a fault in the wiring or battery. The timing goes all over the shop. The advance peaks at about 4000 rpm, but I do think it starts advancing a little too early.
Once I finally get the cafe sorted out I'm planing to re-do the '51 back to almost srd, but retain the 12 volt and elec-ign and get one that fits in the magy body. I think I'll try the Pazon.
To each his own. That's what makes this a great place and be able to bounce ideas off others who may have been down that path. It's great to keep them going in whatever form we wish.
Cheers

[Rocketerik]

Electronic system on 60 super Rocket.
To add the diversity on the subject I will describe the Runtronic ignition.
You will see in the pic a black box 4 by 4 cm in size. From the box goes two leads to the spark plugs. On the left side of the box you can see 6 volts coming in. On the other side there is a lead going to a sensor placed where the mag normally lives. Two small magnets at 180 degrees apart rotate past the sensor at half engine speed like the Lucas mag. ( See New member from Sweden). There are no outside coils at all. Advance curve is built in to the box.
The power it needs is very small ,much less than 1 amp. This system was designed for model engines but seems to work well in bigger ones as well. For model aviation use the the small weight is very wellcome.
Initially I used the sensor placed alongside the crankshaft in the primary case but  got problems as the small magnet(5x5mm) got hot from the engine warming up.
I am not very good at electronics myself. The good sparks that come out from those spark plugs with that kind of input energy is magic to me.
The described system has worked for around 1000km for me so far.It is fed from Lucas 6 volt dynamo through 6 volt gel battery.
I am your test pilot.
Erik

[muskrat]

Thanks Erik,
                looks very compact with the coil and control box in one. It will be interesting to see how it performs long term. Do they come in 12 volt ? I see you use a V-reg11 which is also a 6 to 12 volt converter so you could go that way if the ign unit allowed.
Cheers

[Rocketerik]

Its available for 6-24 volts.  I believe mine is one like that but going safe staying with 6 volt as it works pretty well with Halogen and LEDs everywhere possible. I am also very interested in how long it will last. By the way it needs 250 mAmps at 12000 sparks a minute.
Good sparks everyone.
Erik

[mike667]

Electronic system on 60 super Rocket.
To add the diversity on the subject I will describe the Runtronic ignition.
You will see in the pic a black box 4 by 4 cm in size. From the box goes two leads to the spark plugs. On the left side of the box you can see 6 volts coming in. On the other side there is a lead going to a sensor placed where the mag normally lives. Two small magnets at 180 degrees apart rotate past the sensor at half engine speed like the Lucas mag. ( See New member from Sweden). There are no outside coils at all. Advance curve is built in to the box.
The power it needs is very small ,much less than 1 amp. This system was designed for model engines but seems to work well in bigger ones as well. For model aviation use the the small weight is very wellcome.
Initially I used the sensor placed alongside the crankshaft in the primary case but  got problems as the small magnet(5x5mm) got hot from the engine warming up.
I am not very good at electronics myself. The good sparks that come out from those spark plugs with that kind of input energy is magic to me.
The described system has worked for around 1000km for me so far.It is fed from Lucas 6 volt dynamo through 6 volt gel battery.
I am your test pilot.
Erik

interesting - any idea about how the advance curve works? or am i missing something